Capps, Linda
Linda Capps: Experiences as the Vice-Chairman of the
Pottawatomie Tribe
Interviewed by Stacy Elliott (student interview)
Q: When and where were you born?
A: Oh, well, I was born in Harrah and you need the date?
Q: Yea, how old are you, Aunt Linda?
A: Do you know that, of course, I don’t want you to, an, what are you going to do with all of this – go back – type it up?
Q: Yeah.
A: Well, let me tell you a funny little story. We went to a Christmas party last year and all these young people sitting around the table started telling about when they went to high school and they were all just telling what year they graduated from high school and then it came my turn and I said I dropped out of high school and I wasn’t gonna tell them what year I graduated from high school. And they all looked at me . . . no, I was born 6/18/45 – 150 years ago!
Q: Did you go to Harrah high school?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you really . . . at that time was Harrah culturally diverse or was it still basically how it is now? Did all whites just go there?
A: You know, that is something that is real odd, because, ah, when I went to Harrah, Harrah had no Afro-Americans in school – none. They had none. I went there for 12 years and there was never a black that went to our school, which was really unusual because McCloud and Jones and Luther and Choctaw – all of them had Afro-American or blacks, but we had none.
Q: I know when I went there, there was only one, and that was only for a year and I never saw another black until I moved to Midwest City.
A: We had lots of Native Americans in school. I would say that the population was about 25%, approximately.
Q: What age did you realize that you were interested in politics?
A: Am I interested in it? (laughs)
Q: Are you interested in it? (laughs)
A: That’s just something that you kind of have to come of age. You probably don’t get involved with politics until you get a little bit older or that was my case – probably around 35.
Q: When did you actually come here and become the vice-chairman?
A: I had been an elected official with the tribe since the late 80s. I became the vice-chairman in 1989, and before that time I was on the grievance committee.
Q: Where did the tribe originate?
A: From the Great Lakes area.
Q: How long had the tribe been in Oklahoma?
A: Golly, our reservations – let me come back to that question and I will tell you the exact year.
Q: In today’s time period, what is the tribe basically about?
A: Well, I think that their people like to be tied to their heritage and they like to keep up with their heritage and the culture of their heritage. One thing that people want is services and they expect to get services from the tribe and I think first of all they like their heritage and they want the affiliation for cultural purposes and for services.
Q: How did you get started in the tribe?
A: I came to Tecumseh in 1977. My husband and I moved here and he came to Tecumseh High School as a basketball coach in 1977, and, ah, because I did have Indian heritage, the job for – at that time it was for Title IV Indian Education. Indian program was open and the superintendent who happens to be Pottawatomie, he offered me that job as the Indian education director, so that’s what I did. By the way, the program has changed from Title IV to Title IX now. It’s the Indian Education Program and these programs are real strong in the state today, and they were just new back in the 70s. The Indian Education Program was just new to the state, but I took up that and because of that I become involved with Native Americans in the area. So that’s probably why I came to my own tribe, you know, and became an elected official.
Q: How did people react – people of the tribe react to you being a woman and holding such a high office?
A: I think that they’re proud and that the women are very proud that there is a woman in the position and I think that the men accept me, so it’s been a positive thing.
Q: Do you think you made a difference in helping to promote the well-being of the tribe?
A: Of course. I work real hard and so I am usual at task [sic] in trying to help the tribe better progress economically or whether it’s to provide service for the people . . . I work real hard at it.
Q: What programs are available to help the people? Like health, education, and housing-wise?
A: I will just give you the highlights of that. And Stacy, I will give you a little booklet of that, too – the highlights for the members nationwide that we do have a housing program and the housing program that I am so proud of is [a] closing grant so people can actually get closing expense. If you buy a house, you can get up to $2,125 towards your closing expense and this is nationwide, so it’s for all members nationwide. Of course, if you want to build a house or if you want a home here in Oklahoma within our jurisdiction, it’s a lot easier to get a loan for that building, but, however, you have to meet an income guideline. But with the closing grant, you don’t have to meet any type of income, so I like that program. We also have a wonderful health clinic. The people who live in this area are eligible to go to this health clinic. If you are Pottawatomie and you live outside f our area, you can also go to the health clinic, and we have a state-of-the-art health facility. And we have great doctors, so we are really proud of the clinic. And our doctors have been able to help a lot of our people.
Q: What about education-wise? What about the grants and the other things?
A: Yes, we have 2 types of grants anyone who is in college can apply for if you’re Pottawatomie. You can apply for the Pottawatomie grant, and you can also apply for the basic grant through the college. I think that they initiate that through the college. So, there is really – you can get money through the BIA or something Native American and through the Pottawatomie scholarship. And another thing about that, we have housing in a grant that is $450 a semester, so if you are living away from home, you can be eligible for that $450 if you’re Pottawatomie and a full-time student. We have a program at Saint Gregory’s called the Miswamin Program, and we have worked very closely with Saint Gregory’s and donated so much money to them, and we have worked with their grant program and we have actually received some grants through them, with the, and [in] conjunction with them. And so the Miswamin scholarship program [is] for Pottawatomie going to Saint Gregory’s, so we have grants there and because it’s expensive to go to school there.
Q: What would you consider your personal accomplishments and accomplishments you would like to attain?
A: Well, I am really pushing for a veteran’s memorial at our pow-wow grounds and I would really like to see that to pass. I would also like to see some type of permanent – some death benefit for our young people that will carry out for the future of the tribe. If we would take out a policy for all of the children who are born and one of these days then when that child – in 50 or in 75 years – when that child dies that child will have a death benefit. Right now we do have a death benefit for tribal members, but they had to have signed up for that death benefit in 1994 or 1995. That was only open for one year and that was a $1000 policy, so everyone who signed up – and we had 8 to 10 thousand people sign up on that death policy – everyone has a thousand dollars to their death benefit. But I would like to see – for us to do something permanent for the young people so that would carry through with their life so that would be a future thing. So that way, when they die, their death costs would be taken care of. Those are two programs that I would really like to see and there are some more things, too. Are you going to ask questions about economic development, too?
Q: Where do you see the tribe heading? Where do you see the future of the tribe? Do you think that the tribe is going to stay strong?
A: I think our tribe will stay strong and our tribe is strong because of our business committee and part of our government structure. We have 5 people on our business committee and those people are non-salaried, and so I think that has been a strong feature of our tribe – that our elected officials have been non-paid. I am receiving a salary from the tribe because I am working as an administrator, but as the vice-chairman I am not paid. So when I started in the 70s, that was not a salary position. It was voluntary position.
Q: So you don’t make any more money than a regular person who holds a lesser position than you?
A: No.
Q: Why is that? Does that have anything to do [with] the supreme court?
A: I will go into that later.
Q: How come elected officials don’t get paid salary?
A: That has been our policy. I have been doing a survey from the tribe and I think I have 15 of them done – and I think that there are about 39 recognized tribes in the state of Oklahoma – and I have been doing a survey to see if they have been paying their elected officials or not. Out of the people who answer them, most of them do. Maybe we have changed that policy, and when I worked at the vo-tech, and I worked in government contracted . . . and I helped business and industry with government contracting . . . and really and truly my experience fit in with that, but if you didn’t have that kind of job, you know, if you’re just a regular Joe Blow out here and you just have a regular job, it’s sort of hard to serve the tribe and work full time. I don’t know – we may look at that policy for the future.
Q: Is that your main job right now?
A: Being the vice-chairman?
Q: Yes.
A: Well, I work as an administrator and we have approximately 600 employees - and administrator for the citizens of the Pottawatomie Nation – that’s a real big job.
Q: What are the long term and the short term goals for the tribe?
A: Well, long term goals for me concerning the tribe are to be independent from the federal government. That’s going to be an economic development, though. We built the grocery store this year and I want to get away from gaming, because gaming has been our lifeline and I don’t want that – is be something that I want for our tribe.
Q: What exactly is gaming?
A: Gaming is our bingo operation. It’s the extracurricular activities for the money.
Q: What about short term goals?
A: Short term goals are just managing the contract that we have in place and we are in the process of building a new daycare center, and wellness center , and a culture center. We want to get those done and established within the next couple of years. Those are my short term goals.
Q: What will the culture center consist of?
A: The center has [a] museum and will house a small gift shop. It will be a tourist attraction and a place where Indians, and especially Pottawatomies, can go to learn all about their heritage. It’s going to be good project for us.
Q: In your lifetime, what is the main goal you want accomplished?
A: Well, we have worked hard to preserve our language. Even though I will never learn a lot of Pottawatomie, it is something that I will want my grandchildren to know. So, I am interested in preserving the language, the culture, and heritage, so others can learn about us.
Q: Where do you feel our tribe is economically?
A: As far as economically, I fell our tribe is the most progressive tribe in the state. We have done very well with the money we have made with our gaming money. We say time and time again – we say that our gaming money is our seed corn. We need to plant seeds. We need to utilize our money so we can turn around and have it grow for the tribe.
Q: Is there any one thing that has happened to stop the growth of the tribe? Or has the tribe pretty much had good luck?
A: We have had good luck. We have had some recent political unrest. It’s something a lot of tribes experience and have suffered for a long time, but the Pottawatomie tribe has not experienced political unrest in about 50 years. I think that you are going to find political unrest and it cycles within a tribe. I thin it cycles within history. I think you are going to find that from time to time, but we have been fortunate in that area.
Q: What do you think the main need of the tribe is right now?
A: Well, probably our main need is for us to get together and accomplish our short term goals, which are the ones I listed before. We need to get those 3 projects on the ground. We need to make sure that we stay focused in getting that done.
Q: Could you elaborate and tell me more about the supreme court case?
A: We have had some litigation. The most recent case is we went to the our supreme court and we have never done that since I have been affiliated with the tribe. Our own supreme court has never met until just recently. The chairman of our tribe has worked as both administrator and the chairman. The majority of the business committee asked him to step down from being the administrator. They felt that that was giving him too much power, being both administrator and the chairman. When they asked him to step down, he refused to do so. He basically said that he was the administrator by virtue of being the chairman. He thought he had the right to appoint himself as the administrator. He thought it was constitutional to be chairman and administrator, and that’s what was taken to the supreme court. The supreme court ruled against Mr. Barrett, so he is no longer an administrator here, and he still comes here on a daily basis and still does the overseeing of the tribe. But it’s still in litigation. Portions of that decision have gone back to the district court and I think that we will still see more litigation concerning that.
Q: When you say ‘our supreme court,’ what exactly does that mean?
A: The Pottawatomie Tribe’s Supreme Court.
Q: What’s the difference between you being an administrator and he being the chairman and administrator?
A: The chairman has the last say. He is the highest elected office and he has the constitutional duties to oversee the tribe. He can veto or pass. The chairman has a lot of power, and being the administrator and the chairman, he had a lot of power. Actually, being vice-chairman and administrator, that gives me some power, but yet, he has the final say. Our business committee as a body has a lot of power. The five members – and I am part of that – the chairman, vice-chairman, the secretary of treasury, and two committee members. So we are having a little bit of a power struggle right now between the chairman and the business committee.
Q: What was your role in the case? Did you have a significant role?
A: Well, I did have a significant role because at first I was part of the 4 who asked the chairman to step down as administrator. But then, I withdrew my vote before the case went to the supreme court. It because a 3-2 situation as opposed to a 4-1.
Q: What made you change your mine?
A: I thought that it got real political. I never intended for my vote against the chairman as an administrator to become a personal vote against him as a chairman. Our chairman has done a very good job and he is a very intelligent man and he has a lot of capabilities and he does a very good job when he goes to negotiate for funds for our tribe, and he is a very good leader. When I withdrew my vote – that was saying that I am not against our chairman as a chairman. The whole thing go so political. The other members are against him for being chairman. I am not.
Q: Why could this not be handled within the tribe? Why did it have to go to the supreme court?
A: Because he refused to step down and because of the power he had as a chairman. It became a legal battle. It was just left up to the courts.
Q: What exactly is your view on the ruling?
A: I think it has good and bad points. I can understand why they ruled the way they did because he has a lot of power. Although it’s not that detrimental to us right now with the individual being here, with Mr. Barrett being that position. If you had a person who was in that position that didn’t have Mr. Barrett’s abilities, then it could be bad. So you wouldn’t want that for the future. You wouldn’t want anyone coming in to automatically name himself or herself as an administrator. You wouldn’t want anyone elected as chairman to automatically become the administrator.
Q: Within the tribe, aren’t there checks and balances like there are in the federal government?
A: We don’t have a system like that. The chairman is really pushing for us to have a constitutional chain. Our constitution calls out for separate poers concerning the chairman, the vice-chairman, and the secretary of treasury. But, our constitution is not clear on it. The chairman is pushing for a change in the constitution that clearly defines those roles.
Q: Was there a fear that him being both the administrator and the chairman that something would go wrong?
A: It’s almost a personality conflict. It’s a power struggle.
Q: You know during the time when you got all the family members together to vote on behalf of Mr. Barrett, did the people of the tribe really not care for him as the chairman?
A: Well, in his election he won 70 percent of the vote so – actually it’s close to 71 percent – so that shows you what the majority of the people want. It’s just the power struggle of the few that want a different leader.
Q: Do you think that public support is declining or increasing?
A: The public supports our tribe. We have supported the community. We have given a lot of money to the community and to the schools. I think that we have a lot of support and they realize that we are a major contributor as far as economic development and as far as employment goes. We have about 600 employees and that is significant for this area. We are one of the top four in the area.
Q: Is public support important?
A: Public support is important, but if we are dealing with just the public, then we are not necessarily dealing with tribal members. But, of course, tri9bal membership support is very important. But we are interest in knowing what is best for the community and we are interested in doing what is best for the community. We have been a real big part of the community. We have had public support and we had some problems with the grocery store opening.
Q: Do you think more involvement from people of the tribe as well as of the people of the community would help to launch and create a better tribe?
A: Support from community helps. You need your government. We are a sovereign nation. The City of Shawnee doesn’t consider us that. We are annexed from the City of Shawnee, and that’s a real political thing, too. We are working to become de-annexed from the City of Shawnee because they should recognize us as a separate nation, and not recognize us as being a part of them. Because we have separate government. Public support is necessary to get certain tings done.
Q: What do you want people to know about the tribe and what do you think is the most important thing to know about the tribe?
A: It’s important to know that the Pottawatomie Nation cares and that we are a major player in the economic development of the community and that we are a major employer and we treat our employees good. We have good benefits. We care about them, and we make sure they get professional improvement and training. We care about the people of the community as well as our tribal members.
Q: Do you think that Indian education should be taught in schools?
A: Oh, yeah, definitely. I have so much affiliation in other states and you know Inidan education is not taught in all states. Texas has no Indian education programs. We are lucky in the state of Oklahoma. In the 1990 census, Oklahoma ran ahead of California in having the most Native Americans. I don’t know what the 2000 census has shown due to figures not being calculated yet.
Q: Do you think teachers are educating the children concerning culture or do you think that teachers are contributing to the common stereotype that Indians are barbaric. Do you think that when teachers are educating they are educating more on fact or fiction?
A: Looking back on history, back to when I was in school, I don’t think that we did a whole lot of Indian education back in those days. I think in the states that have high populations of Native Americans, the Indian education programs are very important and I think they are doing a lot to teach about the culture and heritage of the tribe.
Q: Do you think that Indian heritage is being forgotten with the passing time?
A: I really don’t, as I say, in the states where Indian education is predominant, I believe that those states are trying to keep the Indian heritage alive.
Q: What do you want the youth of today to remember concerning who we are as an Indian nation?
A: I want the youth to know that the Indian nation is proud of their heritage and that they have a right to be proud.
Q: How have past leaders contributed to the cause of the tribe?
A: We have significant contributions to the tribe from past leaders. I think that is all part of our heritage and the progression of the nation.
Q: What problems have you run into due to the Pottawatomie Nation? How does the public outside of the nation deal with the benefits the Pottawatomie Indians receive? For example, the grocery store?
A: We have had mixed emotions. Oh, let’s say the grocery store – because some people want to say that the Indians have an unfair advantage because of the tax situation. We do charge tax to the public and that tax goes back to the tribe. Just like it does with a city government and a state government. The money goes back to the tribe to help with running the tribe. People complain of an unfair advantage concerning taxes, but if we didn’t charge taxes that is when the unfair advantage would come. Mr. Pratt complained so much about us going into business here, but if we hadn’t charged that .85 percent tax, just think of the advantage that our groceries would have then. Really and truly, we are doing it the right way by charging tax and that tax helps with our nation to provide for the government.
Q: Do you think that people view the Indian benefits as a type of welfare?
A: You are always going to have the people that think that it is welfare. But it also is the same with other minorities. It’s not just Native Americans that receive the complain – it’s all of diverse America that gets the complaint.
Q: Do you think the government has given the Indians back what they took away years ago?
A: I do – I really do. I think that the government has tried to help and tried to alleviate the problems within the tribe as much as they could afford to. I do not have any animosity toward anyone because of what was taken away from my ancestors. Some people do, but I don’t.
Q: Why do you want the Pottawatomie Tribe to be independent from the government?
A: Well, the more independent that we can be, the less we have to depend on the government for Indian Health Service and for those types of things. I want to be completely independent from the government, and the only way we could ever do that would be to build up a huge economic base so that way we wouldn’t have to depend on BIA money or Indian health care money.
Q: Do you think that the tribe would be better off being independent?
A: Oh, yes.
Q: What about finances?
A: That would cut back on finances because we do administer some government programs here. One of the ways the tribe makes money is, for example, the WIC program. The money that we receive to administer that program we get to keep overhead. We do not necessarily make profit, but we do get overhead money.
Q: Do you think that the Indian population has declined to marrying outside of the races?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you think it has declined drastically.
A: Of course, many tribes still marry within their tribes or marry other Native Americans. Of course, the Pottawatomie Tribe was the first tribe to marry the Europeans. That’s why we are so fair skinned.
Q: Do you see a problem with the people with virtually no Indian blood receiving Indian benefits?
A: Of course, we don’t have many full-blood Pottawatomie Indians, but there are some tribal Indians who say that that is a problem to them. They are saying why do we keep giving benefits to those who have a small blood degree. Basically, we don’t have that, because if you are a parent or a grandparent, then you want more benefits for the children, more than you do yourself. I think that most of our people are open-minded and they are wanting to build something for their children and grand-children.
Q: Do you think Indians still have to fight for equality? Have you ever experienced racism?
A: I think that all of us had experienced discrimination, but hopefully we are steering away from that. There is still lack of equality, but hopefully your generation and your children’s generation will grow away from that.
Q: What prejudices have you experienced?
A: My family suffered economic barriers. They could have been contributed by being an Indian, but it took a small part. We were disadvantaged because we were poor and had no father in the home. Lots of people my age have had economic barriers and we have been discriminated against because we are Indians. I would like to think that I have overcome that in my lifetime and if I did ever meet it, I did overcome it.
Q: When you first started out politically, did the men treat you differently?
A: I think they did. Even still, a woman does not receive the same wages as a man does in the same work force.
Q: Do you have any personal experiences concerning prejudices due to gender?
A: I do, but I would have to put them down.
Q: Have you ever been sexually harassed in the workplace?
A: You know, sometimes sexual harassment is in the eyes of the beholder. I think that you have to be a mature person to be in the work force. Sometimes, how you react to certain situations can either make it or break it as far as sexual harassment goes. I would like to always think that I have been a mature adult and a professional in the workplace. We have probably all had situations that could have turned into sexual harassment.
Q: Do you think that women’s rights have evolved drastically from the time you started until now?
A: I think that there is a drastic change; however, I feel that there is still some room for improvement.
Q: Would you consider yourself a feminist?
A: NO!
Q: What was it like growing up compared to now?
A: I think it is harder growing up today. The young people of today are subject to more at risk elements than we were. I think that there are more drugs and that the peer situation is different. But, of course, I grew up in the small town of Harrah, and that made a difference, too. I feel sorry for the young people. I think it’s going to be hard to make as much money as their parents did. I think that our children will not make as much money as their parents did.
Q: Concerning racial issues, is it easier growing up today or back then?
A: Well, concerning racial issues, it’s easier.
Q: Do you think that women are where they should be in society?
A: I think that we are progressing and we are doing much better now in 2000 than we were in the 80s. I think that we are making our way.
Q: What about being an Indian woman?
A: I think that Indian women have progressed a lot and that they probably have a ways to go.
Q: What do you think is harder to overcome – being a women or being an Indian?
A: I think it’s harder to overcome being an Indian than being a woman, because of the discrimination we suffered in the past.
Q: If you could sum yourself up, what would you say about yourself?
A: I would have to say that I am proud of what I have done and my accomplishments and most of all I am proud of my children. I have the three most wonderful children in the world. I have a daughter and two sons.
Q: Being a woman and being an Indian, what do you want the world to know?
A: I want them to go for it! They need to try to achieve what they want to achieve and they don’t need to be set back. It’s a good time for women and for Indians.
Q: What is your blood degree?
A: You are an Indian if you are proud to be an Indian and if you are Pottawatomie, then you are an Indian. It doesn’t matter if you 1:128 degree blood, you are still an Indian. You Indian heritage and we are against carrying around a pedigree. Because you never ask a black how black they are – because if you have a drop of black blood, then you are black.
