Oral History

My Brother Woody

Featuring Mary Jo Guthrie Edgemon
and narrated by Terry Britton

(Recorded 1991)

Throughout it's history, Oklahoma has produced its fair share of characters and entertainers, ranging from Alfalfa Boomer in politics, to Roger Miller of Country Western Music and Broadway fame. In our state, the choice for favorite son is. generally, Will Rogers. But, my own personal favorite is the combination character, writer, and entertainer from Okemah, Oklahoma, Woody Guthrie.

In the background, you can see the home of Woody's maternal grandparents, the old Tanama Ranch House, which still stands near Okemah.

Woody left Okemah, and in the 1930s and 1940s traveled around the world and produced a phenomenal range of material; hundreds of folk songs, children songs, and patriotic music, as well as two long semi-autobiographical novels and newspaper commentaries.

We at Rose State College are attempting to preserve the works and memories of Woody Guthrie for the State of Oklahoma. To do so, we have produced a series of videotapes. The first, a combination performance-lecture by Guy Logsdon, the foremost historian of Woody Guthrie in our state. Guy is the Professor of Education at Tulsa University.

This videotape features Mary Jo Guthrie Edgemon, Woody's youngest sister, who still lives in Seminole, Oklahoma. Mary Jo has traveled around the state and country sharing with various audiences Woody's original writings and other memorabilia. She has also been featured on a PBS special by Arlo Guthrie called, "Hard Travel", and will be featured in a forthcoming BBC special on Woody Guthrie. We at Rose State are pleased that Mary Jo has allowed us to capture some of the memories of her brother for you.

MARY JO: First of all, I am not a professional at this. I really got in to it because people began to discover the uniqueness in the letters and material that I did have. And since, I have been asked to appear at different occasions, schools, and universities, to share. And that's what I'm here for today. And I'm going to be talking and showing some of the letters, I'm going to be reading some, and you just bear with me.

First of all, I want to say a few words about Woody as a brother. I just want to bubble all over when I think about Woody because he was just so much fun, and you know, I don't want this to sound stuffy or whatever now that he is rather well known. I have three brothers. I think I mentioned this before, and each one was just real special to me in their own way.

And Woody's special way was that he just put himself on my level. He came to my house, and he got down on the floor or out on the hillside, and we played cars. He even made me cars - or whittle cars. First of all, when I say cars, I was raised with these three boys and I'm basically a tomboy. I still am a tomboy, more or less, at heart. And Woody, he was really interested in me as a human being, as a person. He would sit and visit with me and he'd like to hear what I had to say. He would ask me questions and he really wanted to know, "Well, how are you doing in school?" "Tell me about your boyfriend." Or, "What kind of boyfriend do you know?" "What are you looking for in a husband?".

And I'm a young girl just growing up. And, I have a letter that he wrote to me, and he starts out -- I did marry a white-collar man -- and he points this out -- He said, "When I visited with you, you indicated what you wanted in your life." And you know, what was important to me at that time, and this was what he was really interested in, me as a person. And he liked to hear my ideas, and you know, I felt like he really genuinely liked me as a sister.

The letters that I have today are the ones I've kept all through the years. And I generally like to say that when you got letters like this from your brothers or your sisters, could you have thrown them away? Because they were all just real unique, well -- original. Many of them are just nonsensical.

For instance, I have letters - here's one that was written on a paper towel from a bathroom. Just a public restroom paper towel. Then I have one here that this piece of construction paper that he's pasted some pictures to and drawn a stamp here, like it were a stamp, and folded it and written a letter in there.

Here's a letter that he wrote me and every line is written with a different style of writing, and with a different color of ink or pencil. And sometimes, colored pencils, I think, is what he used mostly.

This is a letter that he ripped open. Well, it was a piece of Christmas wrapping paper. And if you'll notice, it's all single-spaced typewritten. And here's one that really is sort of hard to decipher because it's on a dark, but I'd take the time -- because it's quite lengthy to read. And this is an old drugstore, Rexal drugstore, sack that's been ripped open and he's written a letter on the other side of that.

This is a book that he made up, Woody Guthrie -- American Folksong. And he's written this, at least a history here about everything - many of the songs that he's written about, as well as his own life.

This was written to my dad, C. E. Guthrie, from Woody and Marjorie Guthrie. Now the letter that Woody wrote is on the margin that - those pages - as you turn them you can read the letter that I got.

Okay. And then there's another one that he's done similarly. He has written - in fact - I talked to Arlo Guthrie not long ago, which is Woody's oldest son and my nephew. And Woody had sent me all these pages of these songs that he had written, but these are all unpublished. And I told Arlo that I was going to get them to him and let him put the music to them. But he's doubled these up and he's written a letter on the back of all of that, at least my letter.

And then I have a letter here that was written. This is not so artistic as much as it's contents are cute. I won a prize in Seminole. All towns have experienced drawings that you have downtown. Everybody goes downtown Thursday afternoon, and one Thursday I won the $81 prize, the cash. And I sent the little article to Woody and Marjorie. And it comes back and he's written a letter like his little son, Jody Ben, that would be Arlo's brother, has written it, and it starts out, it says,

"Deary Edgemons:

What in the name of heck is "Appreciation Day" anyhow? Appreciating which? I could do a bunch of appreciating myself for $81. What do they want appreciated? Tell them about me. Tell them that you're an old appreciater of mine. If you can't get 81 out of them, ask them for 51, 21, or just 1. I can take appreciation jobs at $1 a piece, knock off around 20 of them everyday. I'm an old appreciater from old Okemah where you really got to know your line. I could get my bud, Arlo Davy, to help me and we could appreciate a hundred things a day. What all did you appreciate? How did you work it? Did you appreciate them, or did they appreciate you? How did you work it? Or did you work it both ways?"

And that's my Appreciation Day letter. And he has used the word "appreciation" eleven times, and at no time even resembling the correct spelling of it.

Woody didn't believe in conventional cards, or really not even posed pictures. If you ever just took his picture, he just ran up and got sort of candid shots. He really didn't like to pose for pictures. And he didn't like to go buy birthday cards or Christmas cards, so he made his own. We've all, in our school days, have done these types of construction paper, paste, and you take bits of silk ribbon or paper and drop it around and make your pattern. But this was a tri-fold, and when I laminated these I left it so the fold would not wear through the years.

This was another card that was copied from one of his, says, "Those places I went come back to me like a buzz." Now Woody was in the hospital, too sick to do this at the time, but they copied this out of one of his previous drawings that he had done at sometime before.

And this was the Christmas card that they sent out to everyone. And this was done in 1941, and it had a real good example of Woody's cartoon ability. This is another Christmas card that he did. And again, it's on construction paper with the bits and pieces of color. And here's one that he did that's just nothing but a little slip of construction paper, and through the years it's faded a little bit, but it says, "Merry Christmas. Just thinking about you. That's all. - Marjorie and Woody". That's just a little slip of paper that's been cut out of construction paper that's put down - put in a little tiny envelope that fits it incidentally.

Now, when all his children were born, here again, he was a nonconformist and he made his own announcements, cards, and letters. These are all real cute. Now this one is when Arlo was born. And this one here was -- and this one is his sister, Nora. And that one really just says January the 2nd, 1950, with just a little cartoon. But, over here he has one from Arlo again, and it says, "I am here, where are you?" And another says, "I am here. Deal me a hand. Arlo Guthrie was born." And it says, "If you are a fairly good looking girl you might want to come out here where I can see you." And that was the 7th and 10th of '47, and "Born to win." Those are all doctored up. They're just on little pieces of construction paper with, here again, colored pencils and crayolas and anything that would make a color.

One of the things I like to read here are just exerts of some longer letters. But, Woody was in the Army. Okemah one time had thought about doing something sort of monumental for Woody. And there was two or three of the elder folks there, and one of the bankers just didn't think it was a good idea to do anything outstanding for a man that had never served his country, and what would the service men who did serve think, and that sort of thing. Well, Woody did serve his country. He was in the Army and this is just an exert. He was at Shepherd Field in Texas, and it says,

"This is an awful pretty place. Prettier than 90 out of any 100 towns in this country. And there should be more towns like this with no slums, and no ragged edges, and no rotten houses filled with diseases. And actually I like the highly planned and organized life because I am always an applauder of organization in any form, and I guess this is one of the best forms that I have seen anywhere. And it is a good feeling to know that your welfare is so well planned, even if it takes the opposite or different directions from the one that you had in mind."

I skip down a little bit and I like this, it says,

"The sun hasn't come up, but there is a long strip of red in the rim of the east and it is almost as dark as night. Not quite. And the men are already falling out in long columns, marching and chanting, and singing out their counts. I've heard some of the best singing of this kind that I have ever heard anywhere right here at this field. This kind of life will make a man out of you if you have brought in the least spark of one with you. And you have to bring it in with you or you never could have got in here in the first place."

I like that. Here's one that was written on his lap when he was being shipped overseas, not overseas but on a train going in route from Shepherd Field to the next post where he was stationed. This was a letter - I have read some of the little funny things here. I really meant to read something else but I'll go a head with this one first. Woody was a very serious person, a serious writer, as well as a whimsical one, and this is what he had to sum up because my two brothers and Woody, all three of my brothers were more or less connected with the services, and he writes this to my dad,

"I know you are awful proud of your old George boy, -- (and he was in the Navy) -- as he's been in this fight from the first to the last, six long ole lonesome years". – (And Roy was in defense work in Arizona.) And he said, "In his way he has done his share to work and save and to keep his house and home like a fort for democracy. Whatever comes or goes, let's all work at the best of the job at our hands; and do and say all we can to lift the other one over the hills to come to the roads to be. We all came in the road together, and by the same way, we all need a shoulder do cry on and an ear to listen. These things you have always been to me, and I always want to believe that I have been the same in some little measure to you. Write and tell me all of your thoughts.

Your second son, Woody."

Now this was written to my dad, maybe I failed to mention that. But I thought that was a sweet thought that he put in there.

This cat that you see right here is a China cat that Woody sent me from New York. I like cats, so I wrote to each of my brothers and asked them to all send me a cat for my cat collection. And this is the one I got from Woody and this is the letter that I got from him. I've always thought that this was a real cute letter. It says, "Dear Mary Jo and Brat." My husband was overseas at this time and I had a son who was rather young. Well, let's see, he was just born. So it says,

"… Here's your damned ole crazy cock-eyed cat. I walked 90 blocks, 90 times and spent three hours a piece in 11 cat shops. I got into several live shops by mistake, and was scratched all to dickens four separate occasions. I saw white cats, black ones, gold ones, tall, fat, skinny ones, little baby cats, fuzzy cats, moma cats and tom cats. Woolly cats and all kinds of these hairless cats. I finally hit a joint where they didn't bite very bad and said, "Hey Miss, Give me the worse cat you got. The toughest one to boot!" She ran around all over the factory a couple of trips asking the workers questions, and finally showed me this one. Marjorie is washing it off and polishing it all up nice and shiny. She says it's not worth the price, but it's a cat of broad mind, a union viewpoint, and a sober character. And too, it's a cat which is house broken. Kathy Ann says she has never seen so much fancy purple coat of fur with all the gold trimmings; that it might be an admiral, corporal, or some kind of a brass-hat cat. She says that at the least it's a cat of deep thoughts. He must know a lot because he doesn't blab off. As for me, I say the cat is new to all of us. I do not know him well enough to try to unravel his character, which would not be fair to the cat. It is very possible that he is trying to live down some kind of an unhappy past. So here's to him and may he keep out all of the rats out of your life."

You know, not very long ago I was searching all over for a letter that my dad -- my dad sent me a cat too. His was more of a doorstop kind, but he wrote a letter almost identical with the same thoughts, but it wasn't quite as lengthy. It was funny anyhow how their minds ran along the same avenue of thoughts.

This was my son. He wrote this letter to him and it says,

"Hugh Edward Edgemon: Howdy! This is just to let you know that the deal you told me to work on is going through in fine shape. This gives you complete control of one-half of Oklahoma's oil wells, and lead and zinc mines. You can either have four Cadillac's and three Packard's, or four Packard's and three Cadillac's, as you choose. Not much news because I was talking to the chief of the state highway police, and he told me to tell you not to drive out on to the highway in more than one car at a time. Tell your ma and pa I said hello. Woody."

You know we've had quite a push on Oklahoma Beautiful through the years, and I have worked on committees in connection with our state beautification program. And one of the things that I sort of got a little chuckle out of, or was interesting, Woody had written little cards through the years, and this was written back in 1949. And right down here it's got a little footnote that says "Keep Oklahoma clean". Just sort of like you'd say, "Keep Oklahoma beautiful and clean", you know, that sort of thing.

Woody put together a little songbook. I don't believe it has a date on it, but anyway, this - yes it does, 1945 - he wrote the letters right here. But it's Ten of Woody Guthrie’s Songs, Book One. 25 cents. "This Land is Your Land". And it's the first time it ever appeared in print and it's just typewritten in. "This Land" right here, just typewritten in, drawn in, and sketched it in his own handwriting. I was real pleased to find that we had that one because I had been doing this program for quite a little while before I ran across that. When my father died I fell heir to all of his things. And I went through and Papa had saved all of Woody's things too. And in some cases, I do have duplicates and I'm glad that I do. But I'm proud that I do.

This Bound for Glory - when I got this book through the mail, my husband was in the Army in Texas. Let's see, Post Swift, Texas, down in Austin. And I went to the post office and I got this package and I had two books. There were two Bound for Glory books and I didn't even know Woody was writing a book. But on the inside of the cover, the flysheet, I love the little note that he's written, and signed it and dated it, and it was written March 24, 1943. And it says, "Dear Mary Jo and Hulett:" And at that time I was expecting a little boy. We just have the one son, but I was expecting him at this time. And it says, "Here's to the war …" - and my husband was overseas in the war -- and it says,

" … Here's to the war we know we're going to win, and to folks like you whose winning it. Here's to the quick victory and a whole lot better world that we know is coming. And here's to the death and the grave of all kinds of robbing and slavery; and to the new birth of the new little baby who will grow up in a world where he's free, and needed, and wanted. And where he will work, and live, and rest, and play when the time comes. Here's to you while you're young, and to me you'll always be the prettiest little sister a brother ever had. And here's for Hulett, and to his work, and his hopes. Here's to your long life and all your dreams. Always stay awake and keep dreaming because hope is the gasoline that runs the machinery of this life. I will always be the same as ever,

Your brother, Woody Guthrie."

Now, when I got this second book here, it was again my dad’s and in his things, and in my dad's book he has written,

"To the World and to my Papa:

As good a dad as a kid ever had. I wrote this book wishing I had more of the stuff that made my dad the best, best fighter in Okfuskee County. Always,

Your son, Woody

2-28-43. New York City."

I have something today that I have never shown before because I didn't have it in a way that I could carry it around without breaking it up more. But the London house over at Okemah that Woody writes about in that book Bound for Glory was our home. Now long time ago when a person built a home, whoever built that home it was known as - the London’s built the house and my father had bought the house at this time. It was the Guthrie's home, but it was known as the London house and Woody writes about it as the London house.

The day that the house collapsed it was on national TV, and it said that the old Guthrie home has fallen to the wind, the storm. So, I got my camera and I got my friend to go with me, she and her husband, and we drove over and we went through the debris. And I picked up pieces of the old sheet rock that's written on. And here again, I think that the photographer is going to get a close up of this so you can read it better. But they're signed from Texas and from Switzerland. And I picked up pieces with the little verses in their entirety, just to give you a sample. But the whole house, all the walls were just solid with it.

I went through it, but in the end I could only just pick up these little pieces, and then here was the biggest piece that I came out with. And it's just a piece of old sheet rock, and I thought that was kind of neat to have because it was all that we brought away from the house. And I think there's some of the old wallpaper that was flapping in the wind, and I just ripped it up and brought it. It seemed like a little bit of my past was right there in those old walls, and the debris, and the wood.

This is some of the old wallpaper too. And it's back in the days when they use to use cloth first, and then they glued the paper to the cloth. It lasted forever I guess, but it looks like it's a hundred years old.

VISITING IN THE HOME OF MARY JO GUTHRIE EDGEMON

TERRY BRITTON: We're visiting in the home of Mary Jo Guthrie Edgemon in Guthrie, Oklahoma today.

TERRY: Mary, I know you have been traveling around the state, many schools and colleges throughout the state, on your brother, Woody Guthrie. How did you start doing these exhibits and presentations?

MARY JO: Really, it started out on a low key and gathered momentum as it went along because in the beginning I had Woody's letters that he had sent me through the years. They were all unique, and for that reason I never threw them away. Well the majority of his letters I kept just because of their uniqueness, and sometimes because they were all painted up or doctored up, he had unusual things to say -- just from what he said. And I had these scrapbooks in drawers just all over the house in boxes.

And then, when Woody would sort of come into focus, people found out I was his sister they would call up and visit with me, just wanted to visit with me just because I was his sister. And while they would be visiting with me I'd say, "Wait a minute. I have a letter. Let me show you this letter that I have." You know, "It's real cute". And then I noticed pretty soon I had 3 or 4 letters, and then people would begin to come back and say, "Would you bring these to my class and show them at school?" And I'd say, "Yeah, I'd love to."

The very first program I ever did I just took some things in a portfolio. Now I have two suit cases really full and I leave about half of them at home. But I went back, took the scrapbooks a part, got the letters all out, and many of my letters and things that I have still have the old scrapbook pages still stuck to them partly. And I think that's kind of fun to point out that these were taken out of scrapbooks.

Then I when my father died I fell heir to his personal belongings, and here again, I went through and pulled out everything pertaining to Woody and put with my things. And for this reason many of my things are duplicated. But he has written different notes and he has written letters to my dad on his books and things, and letters to me on mine. So, for that reason even though I have duplicates and records and books, printed material -- notes all are different. So I still have -- everything's original, more or less.

TERRY: Do you find yourself doing more and more of these presentations now?

MARY JO: I tell you, I think the quality of presentations that I'm doing now -- really I'm reaching out further. For instance, the exposure that I got at OU was out of state. And then we went to Wisconsin and there I met people that were all over the world that were interested in this program, and they took my name and address, and you know, would be getting back with me later.

In fact, some of the Oklahoma State -- the OU deal was all music teachers from the State of Oklahoma. And then when I went to Wisconsin, it was music teachers all over the world. Okay, at this point in time I have several commitments to Oklahoma State teachers just out of my immediate region up until Rose State and OU and OSU. And let’s see, I love to do these at the colleges. I'm now beginning to get the colleges in on my program list. And I think that's fun and it's growing because up until this, it's been more or less elementary schools. And now, I'm going into a lot of high schools and speaking to that age group.

But you know, it's real interesting. I even did this in a church about 3 weeks ago. And here again, I went into Woody's things, and I pulled songs that I had never used before, but were related to religion, or to like, Jesus Christ. Then some of the songs that we did, children's songs, pertaining to the religious aspect. I kidded the church, I said, "Well, I'm really going to have to clean up my act today." Because you know, when Woody writes he used some mild profanities that I would not bring out in the church group. But, what you talk to the colleges I don't - you can just deliver the original material because you’re getting into adult groups, school groups. And then when I do it for the second graders, Woody had material that was written too, all of his children's records. I can just relate to almost any kind of group. I'm pleased, and it's interesting to see how widespread Woody's interest area is, you know, for all age groups and types of people.

TERRY: What qualities do you try to bring out that you want most remembered about Woody?

MARY JO: I think, sort of like Marjorie, his widow, she's deceased now. She always said if you just read what Woody wrote. I mean it tells you all about the man, and I love to just really read what he writes. It just makes sense.

For instance, the material that I'm going to bring out in this presentation will be that he was more or less 40 years ahead of his time. He speaks out on dope and pollution and those things. And I think maybe one reason you asked this question. I think when we visited prior to this, I mentioned the fact that I want to clean up Woody's image because to me he was never -- he was a hobo in a sense that he hitched rides on a freight train and back then you thumbed rides. But everybody did back then. Well maybe you all are a little too young to remember, but I can remember the time when, oh my goodness, I'd encounter 5 or 6 people just hitching rides from town to town. And we used to give rides to everybody. It hasn't always been where you were just scared to pick anybody up.

But Woody, our family -- now Woody chose to live the carefree life and he didn't ever believe in ever accumulating any - now, you've been over to my home today and you noticed, I am a junker, more or less, I collect. I'm a pack rack. I don't throw away anything, and Woody never kept anything except all the little notes that he wrote, in his pocket. He just stuffed them in his shirt pockets all through the day, or whatever trip he was taking. Some of it was days or nights, or months or weeks. But when he came home he had all these little fragments of paper that he had written on. And much of the material today is taken from those little bits and pieces of paper that were stored under the bed in boxes where he lived in New York.

But one time, well, he said that Jesus Christ come to this earth and he didn't have anything, and he said you were born with nothing and you're suppose to leave with nothing. And this was more or less his theory.

Okay. Now the reason he didn't like to have any kind of belongings was if he just took a notion today at 10:00 o'clock that he wanted to hit the road at 11:00, he didn't have to stop and pack anything. All he had to do was pick up his guitar and he was on the road.

TERRY: When he was young, did you notice, already, his interest in music?

MARY JO: Oh my goodness, yes. Now what you say "young", you got to remember that Woody was ten years older than me, and when I was 8 he was 18. Now these were the fruitful years we had together, more or less. I'm saying, well, I remember Woody more or less between the ages of probably 5 and 16, somewhere along there.

These were the years in - okay, Woody was already in to music, the French Harp. We called it the French Harp then. And he could just do anything with a French Harp. And he didn't carry just one. He carried one in every pocket, and each one of them were different keys. Now, you know, you buy a French Harp or a harmonica, you want a key of C, the key of F, the key of G, B flat. And he had all those and he played them.

And then another thing that he did even before that, we would go out to the farm - well we lived on the farm - but he would come visit us and we would go out into the pasture. And we would go out and gather up rib bones of the cattle that had died, or the coyote, of the cattle or whatever had fallen prey to the lust of the great outdoors. He would take these bones and bring them in, polish them all up, and sand them down, and put them one between each finger. You've seen people rattle the bones, and he was a master.

Now I could go back even further than the bones because when we would come to visit, we would sit down at the table and we would all be around - and back then everybody put their glasses of water on the table. Now days, you drink tea or coffee. But back then everybody had water and whatever else you wanted. And he would pick up the fork or the knife, and he would pick out tunes on all the different sounds that he could make on the different glasses, cups, plates or whatever. He just made a symphony out of just sitting down at a table.

And then when he began to play the mandolin, mandolin I think, is the first instrument that he picked up. I never seen a mandolin that I don't think of Woody. But he was a master of that. He made a little rack that held his harmonica. He made them out of coat hangers. He would play the mandolin or the guitar, and play the French Harp too. And then let's see, I guess I can remember when he bought a set of trap drums and brought them in.

Our family were all musical. My aunts and uncles, more or less. I was not. My brother, George, and I, we never learned how to play anything but the radio. I'm still trying to learn how to play C cord on the piano.

He just always was kind of bouncy and rhythmatic in his movements, and he danced. He was a great dancer, and he use to perform. "Jig Dancing" is what we called it then. My brother, George, is just younger than Woody, older than I am, but younger than Woody. The two of them use to jig dance all the time, and that was rhythm. But Woody just had an abundant amount of rhythm and it just had to come out; either when he was dancing or he was making music. And he was a painter.

Well, I use to go visit their house when he was first married, and in the corner he had these, oh what did you call them? Mats. Not mats. What did you call them when you paint oil paints? Canvases. He bought canvases by the armloads. He would just carry them under his arms and they would just go stacked. And I can remember a stack, the paintings, that would be as much as go half way up the walls. He only entered one painting in a show, and it was the "Whistlers Mother" that he did. And he jumped off - he traveled by freight train - and one of the places that he had to get off he threw the picture down first and jumped down and he hit it, more or less, just right in the middle of it. That ended the idea of his ever showing his artwork.

But it was really good, and I thought, "Well, here's Woody and he's got all the talent." I mean he got it all. He could just do everything. The only thing I got left is just to run around and tell the world about him.

TERRY: What do you think triggered Woody's interest in the ‘30s? We know that many people were affected by the dust bowl and the depression. What do you think triggered him to become very involved with unions and the migrant workers?

MARY JO: There's one of the records that Woody does that's great. He does an interview with Lomax in California, and its in the - Library of Congress has this record. He does this interview. The first half of this record he sort of touches on the answer that you're wanting.

First of all, Woody didn't like to see some of the people being rich and some of them being poor. He didn't mind people being rich, but he didn't like them using their riches to make the poor people feel poor. And then when we did hit our bad luck, or our hard luck, and it was just that my father had been one of the leading businessmen in Okfuskee County, and had been - he was 32nd degree Mason, and he was a Shriner, and supported all the good causes around in Okemah. And then when the depression hit and my dad lost - as Woody writes his book A Farmer Day for Thirty Days, it just knocked my dad to his knees. Bless his heart. He was a proud man, and even to the day he died and even to his poverty, he wore his suits and his white shirts and his tie. He never gave up his dignity.

And yet, at least some people would like to make us out as trash, trashy people. We were never ever trash, trashy people. And I said way back maybe that was one of the answers that you wanted us to say, to hear me say. I wanted to dispel the fact that we were not trash. My daddy was the furthest thing from trash. He had enough pride for everybody in Oklahoma. He tried to even instill that sense of pride in the rest of us, but Woody was the little rebel and he was just going to do his thing or pop.

And even when he wrote the book Bound for Glory. In the book there’s some obscenity or profanity, obscene pictures and languages. My dad hung his head when the book came out and he said, "I think Woody could have done just as well without all the obscenity and profanity.". The obscene, you know pictures. So he was really a proud man, and, my mother, of course, she died as a young person. But they were one of the nice families of Okemah, and I'd like to clean up the family image there a little bit. I don't want them to think of us as trash, that we were trash.

In fact, sometimes I do this program in some circles and I maybe wonder if people maybe look down to me and think that I'm from the wrong side of the tracks or that I came from trash. I didn't. I never ever felt like I did. I was always proud of our heritage. I have to do this in memory of my dear daddy. He would have been killed if he would have thought anything would have been said like that.

TERRY: But don't you think year by year Woody's stature just simply increases now?

MARY JO: Yes, this is it. Marjorie, the wife again, I love to quote her because she certainly brought out some good points that I like to point up to. If you read what Woody wrote, you would know. It would dispel all doubts in your mind. You wouldn't have any doubt, anything but positive thinking where Woody's concerned.

TERRY: What was it like as a sister living mainly here in this part of Oklahoma and Woody was on the road, not knowing exactly when you would hear from Woody again? Where he would be the next time you’d hear from him?

MARY JO: My daddy sums that up real good. He said Woody was his own worst enemy. Because everything that was detrimental to Woody, Woody was doing himself. And I did worry about it, you know. I'd think, "Well, why’d Woody do that?" And he was, as I'm saying, he was the one that - well, he wasn’t out there to just dare to be different. But when we look back and think, he was the one. He had his own ideas about things. He wasn’t afraid to speak out, or to let the people know how he felt. He was not a speaker. If he wanted to tell somebody something he got his guitar and began to sing about it. And that's how all these songs came about.

TERRY: Did he ever surprise you here by just appearing?

MARY JO: He sure did, and it was funny. Ironically you'd ask that question. He did exactly that. My little boy was about 5 years old, and I didn't realize that he had been impressed-or that he had that mental picture of Woody. Because we just got letters and we’d read Woody’s letters. But one day the back door - somebody knocked on the back door - and my little boy answered, Hue answered the door, and he just opened up the door and he said, "It's Woody!" And there was Woody. He’d come from California, I believe - he was coming from New York this time - and he had been in Oklahoma visiting my dad. My dad had given him a white Stetson hat and he was wearing that hat. And when he got ready to leave I ended up with that hat.

Then there's a jacket that he was wearing that he’s got on in the book Bound for Glory, and I ended up with that jacket. And do you know I gave those to the Salvation Army? Their worth a mint if I had them today and I could just kick myself because I didn't realize that Woody-first of all the jacket was Pendleton wool. You know how moths get into those things. Somebody needed to be enjoying it, or getting the good out of it.

He came to the door and he stayed two or three days. He’d been on the road all this time. And I remember Hirda Gear was just talking about how they just had to practically hog-tie Woody to get him to take a bath. But here again, he’d been on the road and he was dirty, and his clothes needed cleaning and taking care of. I just suggested that he clean up I give him a complete set of-I went- and my husband was about the same size - and I just went and got him a complete new set of clothes and took all he had and just kept them. Woody got all freshened up and he hit the road again. But he was there about three or four days.

And this was just before his illness was beginning to show. We did not know there was anything wrong. And he paced, just like a caged lion. Our living room was about as long as this area is here, from wall to wall, back and forth, and back and forth, and he said, "I've just got to go.". Marjorie had wrote us a letter just right after that and she did not know that Woody had been to see us. I knew that something was the matter. She writes the letter and says that he - well they just reached a time when they couldn't get along together any more. The doctors had said that he was dangerous maybe around the children, that he was just not responsible for his actions at this time, and to just encourage him to just kind of get out and live away from the children because they were all small at this time.

Well, then when he got back to New York from this trip - when I got him all cleaned up and got him back to the road - he went back to New York. And then is when they diagnosed Huntington’s Disease, or Huntington’s Korea it was called in the beginning. He gets in the hospital out there and the doctor tells him that he has Huntington’s. Then he says, "This is the way that my mother was. Just exactly the way my mother walked, my mother talked, my mother felt." And he said there was no pain. You just felt like you were on a cheap drunk, just sort of swayed and reeled all the time. And he was dizzy quite a bit. But he said that the funny thing about it, and Woody never lost his sense of humor, in this ward where all these patients are and they didn’t have a medical ward, it was an insane ward, just mental sicknesses. He said, "Of all the people in this ward, I am the only one of sane mind: And I look …". In fact, by this time his head was doing this, (hanging, wobbly head) and he was like this, you know. He said, " I look crazier than anybody in here, but I'm the only sane one." And he had to laugh about that. I can always remember that.

We took him out to the lawn, and I was taking pictures and I got my camera confiscated from me. But I got them to give my camera back to me because I said, "Now I haven't seen my brother for twelve years and this is all the pictures I have.", and they gave it back to me. I do have the pictures - I don't - you all have seen them, but we didn't copy them the other day.

TERRY: Now, you’ve been in Seminole for how long now?

MARY JO: Okay. Let’s see, about 41 years.

TERRY: And before that, in Konawa?

MARY JO: Well, I went to Konawa when I was – let’s just do this real fast. I was born in Okeema; went to Pampa, Texas at 3; came back to Oklahoma at 16; and then I came to - I don't know what year. My husband is good on dates and things like that. Let’s see, we lived in Wewoka first. I married at 18. Then we’ve lived in Seminole, my little boy is 42 years old.

TERRY: And how far are you are you from Okemah?

MARY JO: Forty minutes, about forty-five miles. Forty to forty-five minutes

TERRY: Do you go back there and visit?

MARY JO: Yes, I do. I have some real dear relatives there. The Tanners and McVays, are all our cousins. They’re real - I love them for what they’re doing in Okemah. They’re just as supportive of Woody over there and they get real excited. In fact, when we go to Okemah you'll meet them because they help us a lot on that end. They’re just great people. And they've opened up their homes, they have hosted things. Guy Logdon’s wife’s people all live there, Phyllis’s folks. They’re all just real sweet. We just have a lot of real sweet people there, so I feel very close to Okemah.

TERRY: Okay.

MARY JO: Even though they’ve been a little negative toward Woody, up to a time. But I think that, and in time, that will change when they really see that Woody wasn’t all that. It was a schoolteacher that sort of pegged him from some newspaper that published an item. And, of course, a little small town just jumped on it with all fours and blew it all out of context and out of proportion.

TERRY: Now Joe Kline, in his book about Woody, gives credit to either a teacher or a librarian in Pampa who started Woody reading

MARY JO: Uh huh. It's in Pampa. It's is a librarian. I can't think of her name. There are only two known works of Woody’s left in painting and she has a painting of Woody’s. It's Abraham Lincoln. He presented her that picture. And they used it in all of their patriotic celebrations. And she retired and she took that picture with her.

And then the other one is a picture of a boy and his dog that my aunt in Denver had. Then, of course, my cousins in Denver, the Guthrie's, they fell heir to that one picture. But those are the only two that I know of, that I could – they’re all around somewhere, but those are the only two that I could ever even trace to just get a look at again.

TERRY: Would you just comment briefly on his sign painting career when he was in Pampa, Texas?

MARY JO: Okay. Woody made his living by painting different signs. By painting for different merchants. And here again, just sort of like the French Harps, he had all kinds of brushes, all sizes. All sizes and shapes of brushes, and he went around with just pockets full of brushes all the time. And when he ran out of money he would travel. He’d go - like he was going to Seminole, Oklahoma, he would paint enough signs here to get enough money to go to Oklahoma City. Up there, he’d paint enough signs to go to Texas, or whatever. And he painted signs. He made his way painting signs.

And at least one sign - Mr. Shorty Harris owned a drugstore in Pampa, and he gave Woody his very first job. Through the years, well he worked inside as the clerk in the store, but during this time he painted the front of Shorty Harris’s drugstore for him. And it says "Harris Drug" great big above it. And he goes out and he paints this sign.

And through the years Woody moves on and Mr. Harris sells his drugstore. They try to paint the sign, paint the "Harris Drug" over because - Mr. Harris cannot get the paint, you know the "Harris" keeps bleeding back through. They cover it up and then no time at all the "Harris Drug" has bled back through. At first he said he cursed it. He would just get fighting mad because he just cursed Woody every time because of the kind of paint or whatever he used. Now ,with pride, he goes out and paints and says and points to the sign and says "Woody painted that sign:" And so, one of the men doing research on Woody stood on the hood of the car to get the close up and there’s Woody's name. He's just written" Woody". But I love that. It's sort of eerie the fact that they could not -I think in the last go around they got someone to come in and sandblast the building and that's the only way they got it off.

TERRY: About his music. Many people, of course, remember his most famous song "This Land is Your Land", but there are many others that to me I think are as good or better. The "Rubin James" song, many of the country ballads. This theme-ironically, they accuse him so often of being anti-American, but the theme of America ran so strongly throughout all of his music.

MARY JO: Yeah, right.

TERRY: As you take this around to the schools, can you make this come alive to them? Would you just comment upon this, this love of the land?

MARY JO: I'd like to point out that Woody wrote about pretty things, life in general. It was on the upbeat, positive, optimistic. First of all, we are an optimistic family. This comes through loud and clear with everyone one of us. I mean you cannot-my dad and my three brothers and me-you cannot get us down. I don't care how bleak or down, we're just going to come out on top. I mean there's no way you're going to make us feel down. And Woody, this comes out in all of his writings and all of his songs.

Now, he can write about the hard times, but you don't ever come away feeling depressed or bad. He doesn't write a song. And you know Will Gear where he cites those parts that, "I hate a song that makes you feel like you're not any good to anybody", either too lean, or too fat, you know?

TERRY: Mm huh.

MARY JO: Now, that more or less sums up everything he writes in music or --.

TERRY: Just like in the "Born to Lose" song?

MARY JO: Yes.

TERRY: He thought it shouldn't be --

MARY JO: Yeah. He says --

TERRY: He didn’t want it to be about war. He wanted to –

MARY JO: He says, "Ain’t that some hell of a damned song to send your boys overseas to fight - go and send them off to battle?"

TERRY BRITTON: As Woody says, we very much appreciate Mary Jo for helping us to make this program possible. She helps us to realize that Woody belongs inside main stream of American music and literature.

His music tradition is the tradition of folk, ballad, and his ancestors are rooted in American gospel, hill music, and cowboy ballads. But his method of writing and rhyming have antecedents, even in the early renaissance ballads.

His literary tradition is the tradition of common man, beginning with Walt Whitman and Mark Twain; but also in includes his contemporaries, Carl Sandberg, Studs Terkel, John Dos Passos, Henry Miller, and of course, John Steinbeck. Woody himself gives credit to Walt Whitman for being a major catalyst for his work. And, of course, the ballad of "Tom Joad" is a beautiful distillation of Steinbeck’s "The Grapes of Wrath".

Woody’s first major influence was in the folk music movement of the 1950s and 1960s. Singers such as Bob Dylan were early protégés and devotees. Dylan and Will Geer, and others, took "This Land is Your Land" and helped make it an unofficial national anthem. His song "Oklahoma Hills" is still sung in numerous public schools in our state by children who know little about the man who wrote it.

But now, his work is beginning to make its way into the major anthologies of literature. His fame will continue to rise, and his total contribution is still to be evaluated.