Norris, Cletus Glen
Cletus Glen Norris, Sr.: Korean War
Interview by Joanne McMillen (Midwest City Rotary Club)
Interview Date: February 7, 2005
Q: Would you prefer me calling you Cletus or Glen?
A: You can call me whatever you call me, as long as you call me time to eat.
Q: (laughing) OK. When and where were you born?
A: I was born in Tishomingo, Oklahoma the third day of August 1929.
Q: And, Glen, can you tell me when people first began thinking about the Korean War in the United States?
A: I think probably people were still getting over World War II and in late ’49 and early ‘50s when this came about it was – I think it was more of a shock to people. They didn’t realize – they weren’t thinking about war – I know I wasn’t.
Q: So the next question was, was the war expected or did the war and US involvement come as a complete surprise?
A: It came as a complete surprise to me. I was – I was already in the service – I was already in the national guard. And, ah, when it, ah, I think they closed the border on the 25th day of June of 1950 and that’s when most people became aware of actually what was happening, and that’s when the national guard went on active duty. The national guard went on active duty the first of September of ’49, I believe.
Q: And you were already in the guard?
A: And I was already in the guard.
Q: Were you stateside?
A: Yes. Yes, I had just – I was out of school about a year.
Q: How old were you when the Korean War broke out?
A: Twenty years old.
Q: And we already know that you were in the military at that time.
A: Right.
Q: Were you a World War II veteran and, if so, how did this impact your thoughts?
A: Oh, I was not a World War II veteran. I – I thought at one point, there, that, ah, I was too young, but I thought I could lie about my age and get into the later part of World War II, but it was almost over and, ah, I was – I missed that. So I was not in World War II.
Q: So we know you enlisted. What was your motivation for enlisting?
A: (laughter) Well, I grew up – like I say, I was born in Tishomingo, a very small town, and, ah, most people did not have money. Most – we were – we were poor, actually. And, ah, I had graduated from high school, and, ah, a few of us were sitting in the student union – there’s a little junior college there, and we were – I had started my first year. And we decided that if we joined the national guard, which there was a unit there which is what I wound up belonging to, ah, we could join the national guard and they would pay us, ah, like $26 every two or three months and that would help us.
Q: Ah-huh.
A: So we joined the national guard and at the time we were activated I was at the guard.
Q: But at the same time I’ve heard you had thoughts about, ah, World War II. Was there a sense of patriotism here or was it more of a voluntary. . .
A: I feel like I was patriotic, ah, and as time went on that grew and, of course, I was that young then, but I had heard stories between the end of World War II and the beginning of 1950 when that started, of people that said, ‘well, I really don’t – I kind of like war from where I sit because I make more money.’ And it didn’t sit well with me and also, well, we’ll get into that, I guess – I guess – also I felt like I had heard people say they would make bargains with God, so to speak: ‘God, I’ll not smoke another cigarette if you’ll get me out of this situation that I’m in.’ I didn’t like that. And I told myself that what I would ask God to do was help me do the best job that I can and that would be it. I wouldn’t make any – I wouldn’t – so I didn’t.
Q: Ah-huh.
A: But from that standpoint, that’s kind of what I was exposed to from the end of World War II until we were activated in, ah, September ’49.
Q: I appreciate that. It gives it the perspective for your thinking at the time and the situation in the country. What were your personal feelings about going off to war once you were called and what were your feelings in regard to communism and the anxieties and tensions it created.
A: I didn’t have any – I didn’t know what communism was, hardly. I had, really, had no idea. I – like I say – I was beginning to get an idea what patriotism was. I was – I thought I was immortal, you know, thought wasn’t anything could affect me. Fact of matters, we run around – did – this was even after we were activated – we were still at home getting ready to be transferred to training camps and, ah, we all felt like we were meanest s.o.b. in the valley, and, ah, then that took hold as we got in those, in those situations, that we changed the wording a little bit. . .
Q: (laughter)
A: . . . and “Yeah, though I walk through the valley of. . .” and we changed that. But, ah, no, I didn’t – I was ready. I had no qualms about it. I wasn’t worried at that time. I wasn’t scared at that time.
Q: Ah-huh.
A: So we just went in and started our training and just accepted each day and each happening as it came and didn’t worry about it.
Q: You were pretty invincible in your own mind.
A: In our own mind, yeah.
Q: Ah-huh. Well, what about anxieties and tensions in the United States at the time. Were you cognizant of any or . . .?
A: No, I wasn’t. I had – I did – I just didn’t know those things. We weren’t – very few of us had radios back then. No television at all.
Q: Ah-huh.
A: And, ah, small town papers that didn’t give out a lot of information. And we didn’t worry about things like that.
Q: You didn’t know to worry about it.
A: Pardon?
Q: You didn’t know to worry about it.
A: Didn’t know. Had no idea.
Q: Feelings of your friends and acquaintances about the war? What were they?
A: About the same. We were all, kind of, about the same situation. Same feeling. And they were young, like myself, that were in, we were of the same attitude and felt about it and all. We, ah, and as time went on, it, ah, when we went to Japan in our training we were getting closer and closer and began to realize more and we were ready to go.
Q: Ah-huh.
A: I – I can’t remember one person that decided, well, I just can’t hack this. I don’t want to go. So we felt like it was, ah, that we’d take care of any problem that arose.
Q: Ah-huh. I think you’ve answered this question about people you knew that – did they all want to join the military and serve. There wasn’t a draft through the Korean War, was there?
A: Ah, well, of course – yes, there was. Yes, there was. Of course, at 18 we had to register. And I didn’t realize that – I didn’t intend to be – I wasn’t thinking about it. I did what I did and joined. And as time went on I found out that people were being drafted to, ah, bring the division that I – the 45th Division, which I belonged to, up to strength. And they brought draftees in from all parts of the country. And, ah, so, that was that.
Q: How did your family, wife or girlfriend, feel about you going off to the war?
A: My mom was very concerned. Didn’t know – she didn’t know what was going to happen, but she was concerned. My girlfriend, we had broken up, and, ah, which was good for both of us. She was able to finish school. I didn’t know what was going to happen. And, like I said while ago, it wasn’t bothering me. And, ah, they were – they loved me and they helped me many, many times with the letters that I received. There would be times when we’d get four or five letters that had been on the way, you know, for many weeks. And, ah, they didn’t want it to happen to me, but, ah, it did.
Q: And how did you get those letters? Were they consistent in delivering them?
A: Ah, they wrote on a regular basis, ah, and of course, it was an APO – APO number out of California. And, ah, they would write the letter, and, ah, mail it, ah. If I remember right, most of the time when we received our letters, ah, we’d be back at what they would call a rest area. You’d spend so much time on the main line of resistance and you’d be pulled back to what they called a blocking position for a period of time. Then you would go back for a couple of weeks or so rest. And at that point in time, letters would come in, and you may have four or five or six.
Q: Ah-huh.
A: And you’d have a chance to read them, and you had to write a letter once in a while. And they were very meaningful and, and, helpful to me. It kept me going.
Q: Sure. Sure. Where did you undertake basic training?
A: Camp Polk, Louisiana. Right new Leesville, La. I started my basic training there, and, ah, then, ah, shortly after I arrived at Camp Polk, they sent me Fort Riley, Kansas, to a leadership school. And that was an 8-week school. Came back to – at that time it was Camp Polk. It’s called Fort Polk now. Came back to Camp Polk and got ready to ship out. And, ah, shipped out – I’m going to guess it was somewhere – I think it was in March of ’50 – shipped out at New Orleans. Went down through the Panama Canal, went up to San Francisco, picked up some troops up there. Spent 28 days aboard ship and went to the northern island of Hokkaido in Japan, and that’s where we were in training completing our training, and, ah, when we were scheduled to go to Korea.
Q: So the total amount of time you spent in training from . . .
A: Would have been September of ’49 – of course, that was training that we took in the national guard.
Q: Ah-huh.
A: From then until, ah, we shipped to Korea in early – early December of ’51 – only about a year.
Q: Ah-huh. What were your impressions of basic training and maybe a little more about the experience?
A: Basic training to me was that I – I, for one, enjoyed the training. I enjoyed the regimentation, the discipline. And, ah, what I didn’t enjoy was being held up on weekends when I wanted to go home, and, ah, we got in trouble a time or two leaving camp and spending the weekend, but, ah, I had no problem with basic training. That was OK.
Q: Ah-huh. After basic training, once again, where did the military send you?
A: Well, when we shipped – when we shipped out of the United States, we went right straight to Japan, and we continued our training.
Q: Ah-huh.
A: It was, it was. . .well, I don’t guess you’d – I guess you’d still call it basic training. We had – we had had that much time for those of us that were in the guard at the time to be, probably, considered through with our basic part of our training because we had trained in our weapons, we had trained in qualifying in our weapons, then we took up the additional training when we got to Japan. And whoever made the decision whatever time it was, that decision was made for us to prepare, ah, our training for the move to Korea.
Q: Were you confident that you’d be going to Korea?
A: We – myself – most of us felt like we might.
Q: Ah-huh.
A: That’s kind of what our feeling was. Fact of the matter is, in early – late October or early November of that year, ah, we looked at the bulletin board one day in our company area, and it said it looks there’s going to be several hundred be able to do home pretty soon. At that point in time I already had my orders cut and had enough cash in my pocket that I had accumulated to go to the big island, to Tokyo, on leave. And I cancelled it because I thought I was going to get to go home. And, then, shortly after that, then I think that was either – I think it was after Thanksgiving because I still had my menu for Thanksgiving dinner – that they said that had been cancelled, you will be on your way to Korea. So that would have been late November or the very first part of December of ’51 when we found out for sure that that’s what – that there, again, we still were that young and still that confident in our capabilities of getting things done, that we weren’t – weren’t worried.
Q: Ah-huh.
A: We weren’t . . .
Q: You were ready.
A: We were ready.
Q: In what capacity did you serve during the Korean War, your duty, rank and place of service?
A: I was, ah, attained the rank of staff sergeant. I was the section leader of a 75-recoilless rifle platoon, and, ah, where we served – I was in a heavy weapons company. I was in H company of the 180th infantry regiment of the 45th infantry division. And I have to plug that because I know that all divisions and people that serve in any unit, ah, is proud of their unit. Ah, but I was very proud of the 45th infantry division, and, as a matter of fact, General George S. Patton, who you probably have heard of many times in World War II, and I have that hanging on my wall at home, made the statement in there that the 45th infantry division was the best – was one of the best, if not the best, infantry division in the history of American arms. And that’s something I was very proud of. But, ah, like I said, I was a staff sergeant and I served, ah, ah, in H company in the second battalion. And, ah, we operated, ah, not as a company, but as an addition to rifle companies to give them more fire-power. We had, like I say, I had the 75-recoilless rifle. We had heavy machine guns and heavy mortars and they would attach platoons or sections of us to rifle companies to help in crease their fire power. And, ah, that’s where we spent our time.
Q: Ah-huh. In terms of your experience in Korea, under what kinds of conditions did you live and work?
A: We had the rainy season – a lot of rain – we had the winter campaign – it was terribly cold. Temperatures would get down to minus 37 to minus 40 and stay that way. And, ah, you didn’t – seemed like you couldn’t put on enough clothes to keep warm. And, ah, you could say it was miserable. But we weathered it, I mean, that was the way it was. You accepted it – we accepted it and went on.
Q: Ah-huh.
A: And, which makes me remember, at one point there, back in a rest area that I mentioned a while ago, they set up a 12-man squad tent and run 1/2 inch galvanized pipe down it and made showers in there. And we got to come down off of the hill and take a hot shower, which was the best thing that ever happened (laughter), you know. Which was the best thing that ever happened to me. But, ah, there again, those instances and, ah, and – we got into the point now where we were scared. You’re not scared to the point where you panic and give up, but you’re scared all the time. And that’s when I said, ah, help me do the best that I can what I set out to do was better let nature take its course, or whatever. But, ah. . .
Q: Sounds like you were on high alert.
A: It, ah, we, ah, one fortunate thing about the division – the division, ah, took over – the division replaced the first cavalry division – the whole division all at one time. And so when we went in – when we made it up to the front line we went in and took over their positions, and, ah, still, we didn’t – we knew that it could happen, but we weren’t thinking in terms of ‘well, I’m going to get killed in the next 30 minutes’ or whatever. And, ah, we just did what we were told, took each day as it came.
Q: When you were up at the front line, what about the time you were up there? Was it hours? Was it days?
A: Most of the time we’d spend 18 to 20 or 25 days . . .
Q: On the front lines?
A: In the line. On the line. Ah, give or take, whatever was going on, and that goes back to what I said while ago, we would spend that time up there and then they would pull us back into a blocking position, which would probably be on the order of 2 to 5 miles, probably, behind the line. We would have to be alert all the time back there, but we could rest because we would be what they called second-lined if something was to go through back in that area. And, then, ah, for 10 to 15 days, whatever it was, and then from there they’d pull us back to an area where we could rest.
Q: Ah-huh.
A: And, ah, play a little volleyball or, or even have a cot to sleep on. Up on the line you slept in a hole – what we called hooches, and, of course, you’d think midnight – what we called midnight requisitions, which was stealing stuff, and make it livable for us. But, ah . . .
Q: And what about the food that you ate when you were up there?
A: By far and large it was C-rations. You know, you had sausage, you had corned beef hash, you had this, that, and the other. One little incident that happened, we hadn’t been in the line but very few days and, ah, they called us back from our position, back on the reverse – the reverse slope of the mountain, which is the back side, and the Korean Service Corps brought up a hot meal for us, and it was turkey and if I remember right then we had turkey and dressing and had what we called patriotic ice cream, which was, ah, chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry all in a little block.
Q: Ah-huh.
A: And we had not been there long till they through an artillery barrage in on us and, ah, I didn’t get to eat my ice cream, had to slam it up and get back into the hole, and, ah, but, ah, those, ah, those experiences there – that you’d – and nobody – I don’t think I knew of anybody that griped at all that ‘I’m here – why am I here? Why?’ You know, ‘I shouldn’t be here.’ We all felt like we shouldn’t be there, but we, ah, like my young son said one time that, ah, the military’s the first one that says we don’t want war, but ah, we did.
I have a couple of instances that I would mention that left a big impression on me that people don’t realize – a lot of people don’t realize. I was sent back to Seoul for some reason or other one time and I was standing on the corner of the street – it was kind of like a, ah, some kind of store on the corner. It was a bus stop where the busses would come in and unload and pick up people. This very small child about 4 years old, a little boy, had no – and I’m talking winter time – had no coat, had a little bit of a vest on. I – I see him even now and I think that he was barefooted, but I’m not sure, but he was standing out there on this street corner and waiting for this bus to pull up and get up under the tailpipe where the exhaust was coming out trying to keep warm. And that was everywhere and all the time.
The second instance along that line, at, ah, I had – I had done my time, so to speak, and was coming home. And they’d sent back to Inchon, and they had a chow hall back there, and then when you went in and had your dinner, you came out, you had a barrel that you washed your mess gear in. We had a barrel that you poured your – if you had scraps, you put it in the barrel, and then you washed and went on. Maybe 50 yards from where the building was there was a barbed wire fence and these little kids – and, I know, probably, that their parents probably told them to do it, but they’d have one of our milk cans that our powdered milk come in or a coffee can or something and they would run as hard as they could come to that barrel and try to dig that food out of it. And a Korean guy with a piece of wire or a switch or something would whip them back to get them back. And I thought ‘there’s got to be something better than this.’ And, ah, it – I – it never left, never left, and yet today we see it all over the place – where are we?
Q: Some things we just don’t learn. What kind of contact did you have with the people back home?
A: Just the letters that Mom and my wife, my girlfriend at the time, sent.
Q: Were you free to write whatever you wanted to in your letters, or were those. . .?
A: I can’t remember – I can’t remember them ever, ah, editing anything that I wrote, but I never wrote anything about what was going on other than the fact that, ah, that, ah, that, you know, it’s raining or it’s snowing or its cold or something or glad I got your letter or whatever. Just – that’s about the only thing I ever wrote.
Q: Was it hard to write letters and not talk about your experiences?
A: No, not – I didn’t – well, I think what it was that I didn’t want to worry, to say whatever was going on that might worry Mom or might worry the girlfriend. And that’s the only people I ever wrote a letter to was my Mom.
Q: Ah-huh. The next question asks if you feel comfortable talking about combat, please describe the combat experiences you had, if any.
A: Well, there again, I was scared. Plenty scared. We were very, very fortunate. Of course, like I said awhile ago when I said I was in a heavy weapons company, I was on the line, but I never went – only one time I was sent forward about a half a mile in front of the line to try to close a bunker out, which we did. And I was very nervous. We were there at a point in time when Truman, or they signed a so-called cease-fire. That limited, ah, there was no really offensive pushes at that time. Mostly it was patrol action where – that in itself we lost a lot of people, but, ah, ah, it was just night after night 50 percent alert. There’s a patrol in this area. There’s something in this area, ah, and, ah, we, ah, were on guard all night long. But if – if you could say that you had it easy, I had it easier than infantrymen in a rifle company, because they were the ones that were sent out on patrols at night, and, ah, then tried to cover them if in case it was needed. And, ah, there again, you know, you’re 20 years old and you’re still invincible and you’re – but you realize you could not make it. You’re still scared. You still do what you’re supposed to. And that’s what – that’s what I’m very proud of – from that period of time there was no protesting. Everybody did their job and everybody went. Nobody wanted to, like we said.
Q: Ah-huh.
A: But, ah, that was – I guess I was – I guess – I don’t guess I was in the line but, off and on, every other month or so, I guess, for – from December until June of the following year. Up to June of ’52. That’s when I came home.
Q: Your most memorable experience in Korea, combat or otherwise? You’ve addressed some things already. Is there anything else?
A: I think the most memorable experience, ah, was the two that I gave you just now about the way things were. The other thing was when I realized I was going to get to come home. And they sent back to Inchon to – away from it, and I was coming home. But those – those two experiences, I mean they – they etched in my mind more than anything else. Being shot at, you know, you just accept that. But, ah, that did, and I never forgot those – those two instances. At the same time the little boy was trying to keep warm at the bus an old lady was trying to steal something out of the store and she was almost beat to the ground, trying to – and those things, ah, but, ah, the good experiences after – we were on a tour and took a bus trip up to – I can’t even remember now where it was, but ice fields. We went out on the ice fields with this bus tour and there was about 10 or so Koreans on the bus. I had a cap on that showed what. . . and, ah, I told them that I’d been in Korea, and, ah, I know part of a Korean folk song in English and I sang it for them. And they enjoyed it, so they wound up giving me two or three little mementos and that was something that affected all of us when one of them realized and looked you in the eye and cried and said ‘thank you for being there.’ And that – that affects you, too.
Q: Ah-huh.
A: And, ah, I think we should have been there the way it all come out. I’ve always felt like I don’t think we won anything. I don’t think the war has ever been over with. We still have 150 miles of chain link fence and I’ve always been one that felt like if we’re going to have to, fight to win, don’t just fight up to a certain spot then quit.
Q: Ah-huh. Finish what you start.
A: Pardon?
Q: Finish what you start.
A: Finish what you start. Absolutely.
Q: So, the next question is how has that experience impacted your life, or how have these experiences impacted your life?
A: Well, that part of it, I think, as I told you a while ago, has made me look at people different. I’m more – I’m more cognizant of how a person – it’s hard for me to explain. Empathy. I feel for a person. I want things to be right. I hate to see a person abused. I hate to see a child cry.
Q: How long did you serve in Korea? You’ve given the dates, but. . . .
A: From December of ’51 until June of ’52.
Q: So a year and a half.
A: No, not a year. A little over six months.
Q: That’s right, OK. Six months. And after serving in Korea, where did the military send you, or were you immediately discharged? You said you went home, but were you discharged?
A: Ah, when they – they sent me home in June of ’52, I came to Camp Stoneman, California, and, ah, processed there for about five days, and then they put me on a train and sent me to Fort Sill, Oklahoma. And that’s where I was – that’s where I was released.
Q: Ah-huh.
A: At Fort Sill.
Q: What kind of reception did you receive when you got back to the United States? Back home, specifically?
A: If I recall, it seems to me like it was night when they got there, or she got there, and it was one person because my mom couldn’t come. There was one person that picked me up. There was no reception, no flag waiving or bands playing. My sis came to Fort Sill and picked me up. And that didn’t bother me one bit, at that time. And since then, I’ve wondered how it could be with other factions, but it didn’t bother at the time.
Q: Ah-huh. I understand.
A: I was just glad to be home.
Q: I hear you there.
A: Now backing up to Camp Stoneman, when I hit the – in Frisco, all I wanted to do was find a hamburger – a cheeseburger with French fries. I didn’t find it at that point, but. . .
Q: In terms or your war experiences, how did those experiences affect your relations and interactions with family, friends, spouse, or girlfriend?
A: I think over and above anything else, it made me realize the love that was there and the caring that was there and – closer, so much closer to them.
Q: Ah-huh. Do you still keep in touch with some of the people you served with?
A: Not many. Hardly any at all. There’s one person who still lives in my hometown. Fact of the matter is, he was my first gunner – no, he was one of my ammo bearers. But, ah, one little incident that – two years ago – the lady’s name is Franz – she writes one of the columns in the Daily Oklahoman. I pick up the paper – Mom picks up the paper one morning and she said ‘you’ve got your name in the paper.’ Daily Oklahoman. I said ‘well, I don’t know what’s going on.’ Well, she had got hold of this letter or the guy had written a letter. His name is John Zook. He lives in North Carolina. He was a member of our machine gun platoon. He had come to the reunion – the 45th infantry division association has a reunion once a year in Oklahoma City. And he couldn’t find anybody from H company, second battalion, 180th infantry. And so he wrote this letter and he said ‘I knew some people – two or three – during that period of time and one of them was Cletus G. Norris.’ And, ah, he said. . . anyway, I guess I called her or she called – someway or another got in contact with her. And, ah, I said ‘well, I’ll just call that gentlemen.’ I called him, had a nice conversation with him, and the following year met him at our reunion, and got reacquainted. And then later, she called me and asked me had I got in contact with him. And the whole article – her article was centered around that meeting that we’d had and it happened to be on my birthday (laughing). So I cut it out of the Daily Oklahoman. But, by far, a lot of our people that was in my company – and that’s about the only ones that I got to know at all – was, a lot of them were draftees, like I mentioned before that was from Pennsylvania and New York and different places that when they went home, then never came back. There’s been a few that’s come back to one of our reunions, but, ah, that’s about the extent of it. We have an association – the 180th association, but, ah, everybody’s gone now. It’s kind of few and far between that we visit anymore.
Q: Ah-huh. What kinds of general observations and conclusions do you have about the Korean War and your Korean War experience?
A: I wouldn’t take a million for the experience right now, but I wouldn’t give you a nickel for another one. Ah, it was something that needed to be done, we were called to do it, and by far and large everybody went and done their job to the best of their ability and never griped about it. And, ah, I think it helped. I think it helped so still, quell, or slow down the advance of communism. I’ve never warmed up yet, after all these years, but, ah. . . I’ll tell you Joanne, if I may call you Joanne?
Q: Sure.
A: Like I say, I wouldn’t – I’m a very fortunate person. The only time I get a little bit out of line any more when people still refer to it as a police action or conflict. You can have those things, but war is spelled w-a-r, and that’s exactly what that was.
Q: Ah-huh.
A: We’re a little better now than what we were, but it’s still called the ‘forgotten war.’
Q: Ah-huh.
A: And there was something on the order of 53,000 that paid the price totally. That’s the extent.
Q: Certainly experience it, like you say, impacts your whole life – formed who you are today – and at the same time, wouldn’t want to go back there.
A: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Q: Well, do you have any other comments that you’d like to share?
A: That about sums it up. I’m just – I think you for the opportunity. And I will say this that, ah, there’s even – even there – there’s some funny things that happened and some things that you like to remember. I went over, like I said earlier, 28 days it took us to get to Japan on the General William S. Regal, and it was a mess. I spent five days in Sasebo, Japan on the way being deloused and getting new clothes. Walked down the dock that day to get aboard ship to come home and the closer I got the more I realized that I knew the ship and I had to come home on the General William S. Regal, and I didn’t like that at all! (laughter) But it got me home and that’s all that mattered.
Q: You didn’t protest it enough to stay where you were!
A: And I had sense enough on the way home that I stayed hid out. On the way over I had to do a lot of work, but on the way home I stayed hid. But anyway, ah, I’m glad this is happening because whatever a person’s got to say, it may mean something to someone, it may call to, ah, something happened, and it may do some good, we hope.
Q: Thank you. Certainly they’re valuable stories to share.
A: Yeah.
Rose State College
Last modified on August 25, 2005
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